Powder board side cut?

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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by Lurch on Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:20 pm

Hmmm narrowing it down further to include snow type might be putting a finer point on an already pretty sharp spear..... Understand snow plays a part, but even in the generally light/dry Wyadho & Utah pow (where I spend most of my visits) density can vary considerably. I did a week at Revie 2yrs back & thought the snow felt mostly the same, perhaps a little more granular & coastal, but certainly not miles different.

I ride directional and don't run tight trees as a rule - my capability in the shrubbery does not match my ambitions and I don't bounce as well as I did. Not set on a Swally (but will admit I love the look of them Very Happy ). On hard pack I would not go near a 6.5scr, but I probably wouldn't go near a 18m either - I guess that is what generated my initial question in this thread.




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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by ibrussell on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:16 pm

I don't like high speed wobble in the powder so I use a 173 Coiler vsr 20cm in less than 1.5 feet . I want to sink 6" into the 8" of pow. 1.5"+ I bring out my wall the hangers 184 Rossi undertaker or if it's tight a 168 Osin 4807 Always on the cutting edge... of obsolete.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by terekhov on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:54 pm

Lurch wrote:
The reverse side cut thing has me intrigued. To be fair, Terehkov’s banana sounds a bit ‘out by the wire’ for me, but the Furberg less so.
i ultimately recommend to test reverse sidecut for a day in satisfying conditions - not too deep not too shallow. it's completely different experience, esp. for those with master skills of driving usual snowboards
i own both furberg (1st gen, very bad manufacturing quality!!) and banana hammock 165 - and after I bought boheme valdez 174 this autumn - I plan to part with furberg, and leave hammock with me forever - it is surely VERY different and ultimately fun board to ride sometimes..
yes, furberg is such a low torsional stiffness that carving it in anything but deep is not fun at all. furberg is a great concept with poor implementation.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by crackaddict on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:47 pm

Well, for the deepest days in Wydaho and Utah I would go big for sure.  Long board, big radius.  If you're not riding switch or trees, why not a swallowtail?  Way fun...

As to sidecut specifically though, have a look at Daniel Furberg's ideas here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  

Basically, he argues that since a freeride ski has a much bigger radius than a slalom ski, a freeride snowboard should have a much bigger radius than a slalom snowboard as well.  18 metre scr only seems radical against a backdrop of (a lot of) snowboard companies which have been making the same shapes for decades and change mostly graphics now.

For snow density comparison, I never saw a real mogul in six Grand Targhee winters.  Whereas in Revy, even the deepest dumps turn to moguls right away.  It's not the coastal wet snow here, but it's not the high alpine continental dry fluff either.  I mean shit, the parking lot at Targhee is higher than the summit here.  I have pretty much changed over my entire quiver since moving to Revelstoke.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by Lurch on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:44 am

I like the way you are thinking Mr Crack!
Oh I usually just blame the skiers for moguls - probably a load of rubbish, but usually gets the desired result!
Thanks again everyone for the input.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by terekhov on Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:29 am

crackaddict wrote: If you're not riding switch or trees, why not a swallowtail?  Way fun...
owning undertaker198 - best of the best!! - since 2003 (thanks BOL forums for it!) - i've thinking like that for years (now I have two + pogo secret spot). until banana hammock and furberg turns my POV on it's head -- it's not so fun but undertaker198 gives you stability of well-tuned GS board but in deepest conditions. but feely-surfy loosenes in deeps is gone completely - it's way to simple to ride swallow in pow, and simplicity is no fun from my POV
in 2004 it was a question of swallow (best) or not (not even comparable) - but in 2017 selection is muuuuuch bigger and swallow is surely not THE ultimate tool in pow
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by carllabonville on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:47 pm

This is coming from a guy who has been building boards since the early '90's.  So take it for what its worth...

The thing to remember is that:  in powder boards turn through a combination of steering (essentially sliding the tail), and carving on the counterflexed curve of the board (that is essentially defined dynamically via flex pattern/stifness and fore-aft weight transfer/pressure).  This is (ironically) kinda the same as on the groomed with the primary difference stemming from the fact that the counterflexed curve of the board is not significantly defined by the sidecut, but instead by the flex pattern.  

The sidecut of the board mostly screws up the nice, neutral flex of the board, inducing all kinds of weird, hooky/hunting behaviors as speeds increase.  This is essentially what is described with the Prior Fissile - a tightly sidecutted board that excels at low speeds/tight turns (Whistler's backside/khyber zone....)  I've built a few boards with reduced sidecut for customers who wanted such things (18 m radius, slight taper (1.8 cm), and about 172 cm with pretty long/low entry rocker noses, slightly decambered tails) and having used them I can say that the Fuberg design envelope is pretty nice (I don't mind saying those guys came up with this but I just made a super wide version of a Ski Logic ski with nicer tip/tail rocker and modified tip and tail outlines.  Its pretty interesting how we can end up in the same place but take different roads to get there.)  But I don't think it is really because the sidecuts have to be longer (like skis....) so much as the fact that less sidecut makes the "too much sidecut" issue go away.  What's really surprising is how much easier these boards are to use on piste or in mixed conditions than one might expect.  But you don't really carve as much as do nice controlled "slarves".  Pretty fun though.  

I'd agree with others about the sort of hyper-specialization of ST boards.  I think the other board concepts are a little nicer for more stuff.  

I think a really nice/demonstrative thought experiment can come from imagining a hypothetical board as a simple long rectangle.  (Assuming it has a nice, round flex pattern, and a decently long entry rocker/nose (say about 40 cm on a 165) with no camber or rocker)  That would ride pretty nice in pure off piste powder.  It would be quite neutral and versatile.  Terrible on groomed.  The only flaws (well, big ones at least) would be a hooky desire to go uphill when encountering fluted terrain, and a very on/off personality, that is it would tend to go into the carved portion of the turn agressively once it was leaned and pressured enough.  Until that point it would tend to do:  nothing, unless the tail was being slid off angle.  Now:  imagine a reversed sidecut, fully rockered board.  It's always turning as soon as it is leaned, even a bit, it turns, because it is already counterflexed (Rocker!).  But because of the negative sidecut only some portion of the board is engaged in the turn.  This "portion" is constantly changing depending on speed/pressure/angle of the board to the plane of the snow/surface.  The nice thing is that it is inherently stable - the plan shape (negative sidecut) will try to flatten the board relative to the surface of the snowpack and point it down the fall line.  I think that this the ultimate pure powder shape paradigm, however, it is almost unrideable once there is not enough snow to float "in" it.  Even heli terrain has places where you have to glide along traverses or on windblown ridgetops etc.  The other extreme gets into the fish/extreme taper/deep sidecut world.  These boards tend to go fine straight at low speeds, they quickly counterflex and the huge shovels keep them "nose high" and avoids the dreaded "nose purl".  The deep sidecuts lead to squirrely behavior as the speeds increase, but this is largely avoided by turning around objects/obstacles and reducing speed to sane levels anyhow.  There is probably a reason that these types of boards are the preferred heli operation tools....  Their only Achilles heel comes out when speeds go way up.

What to do?  I think that you have to ask yourself how do you like to ride?  Do you actually have open bowls on the menu?  Or are you in the trees all the time?  Do you like to use plates and plastic boots all the time?  What about after 10:00 when things start to get tracked out?  Are you going back to the car/locker or will you keep riding the same board?  These kinds of questions lead to interesting compromises....

The Japanese trends offer some neat solutions:  Short and wide boards with all kinds of sidecuts.  typically pretty setback.  I think these things go pretty good for most folks, just pick the sidecut to match your speed envelope/preferences.  Bigger numbers are happier at higher speeds.  They seem to be pretty ride-able on the groomed at lower speeds, going forwards.  That said, i bet those soft boot carving gemstek/ogasaka kinda(sp?) boards built with longer noses and tails would be really nice...

Sorry about the rambling.... I tend to get sucked into a whorl of tech-geeky stuff and babble.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by BlueB on Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:42 pm

Welcome on board, what a great first post! ^^

I think that you have to ask yourself how do you like to ride?  Do you actually have open bowls on the menu?  Or are you in the trees all the time?

This sums it up ^, just as mentioned earlier in the thread. Pick your sidecut by the prevalent riding style when you are NOT in the bottomless, pick the flex by the speed you'll mostly do in the deep... Make sure the 2 work together and you are golden.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by terekhov on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:58 pm

great post!!

carllabonville wrote:
I think a really nice/demonstrative thought experiment can come from imagining a hypothetical board as a simple long rectangle.

if I remember correcly - last year when scott produces snowboards (near 2005) - they bring conceptual powder board (named ultimate?) - without any sidecut - so parallel edges. it was long before reverse sidecut came to market by libtech and then others.... I've wanted to test that scott ultimate back then, but to no avail, and now I cannot find it even in internets
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by Mig on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:56 pm

Stoked to see you on here too Carl. Where can we see some of your creations?

Here is what I have been up to myself.

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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by carllabonville on Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:28 pm

Mig:

Love the transitioning graphics!  Cool!  My stuff is pretty spread around...  I have finally got a website, but not all done yet.  (exegi.ca) There are some pics there.  It's amazing once you start to build a website you realize:  Hey, I never really stop and take photos...  ha ha

About the powder board sidecut thing.  I have been thinking about this stuff a bit lately, and finally came down one fundamental question for people to think about, and the answer will tell you more about where to go, design wise than anything else:  What percentage of your turns (in powder) are being used to slow you down versus are being used to go somewhere else/generate turn pressure/G's.

I love building weird boards for this kinda stuff.
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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by Mig on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:05 pm

carllabonville wrote:Mig:

Love the transitioning graphics!  Cool!  My stuff is pretty spread around...  I have finally got a website, but not all done yet.  (exegi.ca) There are some pics there.  It's amazing once you start to build a website you realize:  Hey, I never really stop and take photos...  ha ha
So cool to see we are both still as passionate about this as when we first met in the 80s, man! And very nice stuff and interesting shapes !!! I totally get what you mean about the photo/video situation. I never took any through out the years. It was always Benny and all the other guys that took care of the visual aspect of our snowboard and skateboard passion. Having to manage a website and all the social media, I had to start taking and collecting pictures from everyone who rides a Fullbag... Laughing


Last edited by Mig on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Powder board side cut?

Post by BlueB on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:24 pm

carllabonville wrote:I have finally got a website, but not all done yet.  (exegi.ca) There are some pics there.

I looked at your site, you've got some cool stuff there. But, you are in real need of a professional looking logo and logo-type...
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